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How Professional Services Buyers Buy with Hinge Marketing’s Lee Frederiksen

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How is expertise bought, and how should you sell yours? Hinge Marketing asks this question over and over again, and they do research on how professional services buyers make purchasing decisions. In this episode, Liston interviews Lee Frederiksen to discuss what he's uncovered in his research that we can apply to consultative selling. 

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Check out the four sales fundamentals every top performer masters, how to use value-based selling to increase your leverage, and how to improve your remote selling skills as the world becomes more virtual. 

For more information on remote selling and a complete list of links mentioned in this podcast, visit this remote selling article on our website.


How Professional Services Buyers Buy with Hinge Marketing’s Lee Frederiksen:

Full Transcript

Lee Frederiksen:
We learn that people are more likely already five years ago, they were as likely to look online on social media as they were to check their references. Think about that. You spend all those years trying to cultivate good reference and people look you up on social media. And as fundamentally, it gets down to your behavioral economics. What’s easier? And that’s what people will do. What’s faster and easier. And it takes one minute, two minutes, five minutes to get an impression about a firm. And that was your chance. That was your at bat.

Liston Witherill:
Welcome to modern sales, a podcast that’ll help you sell more by understanding how people buy. I’m your host, Liston Witherill, founder of Serve Don’t Sell. And I dig through academic research. Interview people inside and outside of sales and nerd out on psychology, economics, and neuroscience to figure out how people make decisions. And I am on a mission to change the way 100 million people sell so that buying B2B services can feel as good as a midday nap on a lazy Saturday. Wouldn’t that be nice?

Liston Witherill:
If you’re listening on Spotify, hit that follow button so that you don’t miss a single episode. And if you’re listening on iTunes or Apple Podcasts, please do subscribe. Leave an honest review so long as it’s five stars. It helps me get the word out for the show so that we can together change the way 100 million people sell. Thank you in advance for your help.

Liston Witherill:
And if you’d like show notes, back episodes, or other free information related to this podcast, go to servedontsell.com, click on podcast in the navigation, and you will be in the right place. Now onto the show.

Liston Witherill:
Today, my guest is someone who I’ve been following for 10 years and you’ll hear me say that during the interview because it’s true. I don’t often lead with flattery, but in this case, this person has been quite influential to me because he’s been focused on serving the professional services verticals. So in my day job, I looked at what he had to say about professional services. This was almost 10 years ago that I was looking into that. And he does a lot of research at his firm. So his company is called Hinge Marketing. Lee Frederiksen my guest today is the managing director of Hinge Marketing. And they put out research about how professional services buyers buy, what their preferences are, how they do research. And he also puts out research about the differences between average and high growth firms. So I asked Lee to come on today to talk about what buyers of professional services actually do. What is their behavior during the buying process? Which channels seem to generate the most leads, and which tactics and strategies tend to generate the most leads? And what is the makeup of a sales program at a professional services firm that generally leads to high growth or average growth? So I am really, really excited to bring you my interview with Lee Frederiksen right after this short break.

Liston Witherill:
Hey there, it’s Liston Witherill with the Modern Sales podcast, and I have a wonderful, wonderful guest today. I’ve been following this guy for 10 years or so. I was first exposed to his company and the work they’re doing at Hinge Marketing in my day job. So this was a long time ago, long before I was self-employed. And Hinge Marketing was one of the first companies that I found that had such a tight niche focus on professional services. I’m here with managing director Lee Frederiksen. Lee, welcome to Modern Sales.

Lee Frederiksen:
Pleasure to be here Liston.

Liston Witherill:
Thanks.

Lee Frederiksen:
And thanks for following us.

Liston Witherill:
Yeah, absolutely. Honestly, I mean you were one of the first people that I found who was focused on really any specific niche. And by today’s standards we may even say professional services is really wide. It’s not even a niche. But back then when I first saw it, which would have been 2012 or so, I was totally stunned that you were focused on professional services. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and Hinge Marketing?

Lee Frederiksen:
My background is I’m a psychologist by training. I’m a behavioral psychologist. And I’ve been in the marketing for about 20 some years. I transitioned from public health into the marketing area. And I had used Hinge as a agency for me. So I was a client before. And I sold my company. So I was looking around for well, what comes next. And realize that the great thing that Hinge didn’t have is it didn’t have a focus on research, which I’d always wanted as a client. So I got involved with, and then next thing you know, I ended up buying the company with a couple of other partners. So that’s the story.

Liston Witherill:
Excellent.

Lee Frederiksen:
Just like the old shaver thing. I liked the blade so much, I bought the company.

Liston Witherill:
So it’s a personal hobby of mine and something that ends up in a lot of my content is talking about behavioral economics and how do we make decisions, and what are some things that we can learn about how people fundamentally behave.

Lee Frederiksen:
Yeah. Fascinating stuff.

Liston Witherill:
Totally. How did you go from that into marketing?

Lee Frederiksen:
Well, the interesting thing is I was working on public health things like stop smoking programs, high blood pressure education. And the problem was you couldn’t get people to use the programs. You’d developed this program that would work, but no one would use it. So I thought well, business is good people to do this. So I stumbled on and discovered marketing. And once I discovered it, it’s like, “Oh yeah, well this is what I was actually born to do. This really fits with the balance of research, and creativity, and business practical things. This is my home.” And I’ve been doing it ever since.

Liston Witherill:
So you mentioned you wanted to bring kind of a research focus to hinge, and that’s why I reached out to you to be here today. One thing that you guys put out is this professional services buyer’s guide, research. I’m getting the name wrong, I’m sure. But a lot of great information about how people actually buy professional services.

Lee Frederiksen:
Yes.

Liston Witherill:
If you could start with what were some of the surprising insights that you saw? You’ve done this in 2013 and 2018 I believe. What were some of the key changes that you saw when you did it the second time?

Lee Frederiksen:
In those five years, I would say the biggest single thing is we’ve come to realize that professional services marketing is really about expertise. Matching your expertise with the issues or challenges that your clients have. And it used to be in the old days that that was primarily a individual face-to-face networking kind of thing. Friends introduce friends, and that’s still a part of it. But these days, what’s happened is people are much more inclined to do what is easier. Which is go online and Google a topic. And begin to educate yourself about what is this really about. And that I think gets to the single most startling statistic I saw.

Lee Frederiksen:
Is about five years earlier when we did the first study, right then about half the people said, “You know what? We will rule a firm out before even talking to them.” And that was startling five years ago. “Wow. You don’t even talk to them? Someone they recommend, you don’t talk?” And then we found out that that number in those five years had gone to over 90%. So basically it’s universal that people are ruling folks out as out of consideration. Even if they’ve been referred to them before there’s even a conversation. That is a game changer and something that was formally all local. All networking

Liston Witherill:
And how are they ruling those firms out? Is that based on the website? Is it based on LinkedIn? What are some signals that they’re using in order to make that decision?

Lee Frederiksen:
Interestingly, it’s not one single signal. It’s basically, it’s about four to five different places they’re looking. Website is the most common one used almost universally. LinkedIn is getting very close. Googling them is also gaining on it. Any kind of other social networks, rating sites. All of those things kind of fill in the remainder of that. We learned that people are more likely already five years ago, they were as likely to look online on social media as they were to check your references. Think about that. You spent all those years trying to cultivate good reference, and people look you up on social media. And it fundamentally gets down to your behavioral economics. What’s easier? And that’s what people will do. What’s faster and easier. And it takes one minute, two minutes, five minutes to get an impression about affirm. And that was your chance. That was your at bat.

Liston Witherill:
But it’s interesting because on the one hand, it is easier to do a Google search, no doubt about that. But I also talk a lot about trust and risk mitigation. So when I’m selling professional services, the buyer takes on a lot of risk, right? I can make all the claims in the world, but they can’t touch or hold my service before we go forward, right? Maybe I can sell them a small version of the full package, but essentially they’re taking on a disproportionate amount of the risk. So you would think in some ways that a conversation would be one of the ways to mitigate that risk. But on the flip side, it’s the expertise, which is what you talked about already. So if they’re ruling me out based on my website, but I also know the most important thing is expertise, what are effective ways to demonstrate that expertise to buyers?

Lee Frederiksen:
The challenge you raise is a good one, because expertise is invisible. You can’t tell by looking at a person. Matter of fact, that’s probably one of the most unreliable ways to tell what their expertise is. Looking at who they are. So what are the stand-ins for that? What do people do to try to estimate that? Well, they look at what they’ve written. They listen to what they’ve spoke, they look at what kind of topics they’re authors on. They look for other signs, other indications that this person has expertise. So if someone you know and trust hasn’t said this person has expertise, you’re going to look and see what have they done? Have they done the thing that would tell me, “Yeah, they have the expertise to do this.” They’ve done it a lot of times in the past. They’ve done it at a very high level. They’ve done it for a firm I respect. All of those other kinds of things.

Lee Frederiksen:
But more and more, it really gets down to what is your digital brand? What is your digital footprint as an individual and as a firm? And that’s what people are reading in one way or another, whichever if they’re video people, it’ll tend to be video. If they’re audio people, it’ll tend to be webinars or podcasts. So people have preferences about how they like to consume information. But what they all universally do is they try to understand can this person really solve it? Can I trust this person?

Lee Frederiksen:
And that’s where it really gets down to the essence of your question, and that is how do you build trust in that situation, especially in a remote situation? And you either do it in advance, which is you publish things, you use podcasts, you use webinars to make you visible to the target audience. Or you have to scramble after the person is already got your name, found you, then they’re going to evaluate you.

Lee Frederiksen:
I think you’ve got two different functions there. One is a quick evaluation, a triage if you will. And the other is a trust building. And if you don’t have trust built in advance by someone’s been following you over a period of time, then you have to scramble and build it in the short term. Your website has to be just right. Your messages have to be just right. Your interactions have to be just right, or you’re on the dustbin.

Liston Witherill:
So when it comes to demonstrating expertise, I want to dig into this a little bit more because I think about it for myself. And I have the podcast, right? So I interview people like you, but I also have solo episodes where I sort of demonstrate here’s what I know, here’s how I think about things, here’s my worldview, and here’s some things that I think you can apply to your business. I’m working on a book, I have my website, I have my email, right? There’s all these different ways that I communicate with people. To your point, some people like podcasts, some people like video, some people like the written word.

Liston Witherill:
When you talk about demonstrating expertise, I think some of it is showing results. So does that mean not only am I creating this kind of thought leadership content, but I should also have case studies? What other things in terms of concrete advice we can give to people, what other things do they need in place to pass that initial smell test when someone goes and does that initial investigation?

Lee Frederiksen:
Well case studies are fine. And they do a lot to show, I work with this kind of client on this type of project. So they are a good brick in the foundation. But if you dig a little deeper and you try to understand. what is it that causes a person to say you’re an expert? And there’s two things that do it. Number one is the social validation. In other words, people you know or trust say, “Yeah, he’s an expert. This gal or this guy really knows their stuff, they would work.” So that’s one thing.

Lee Frederiksen:
But the other thing that kind of surprised us when I first saw it is your ability to make a complex topic understandable. So can you explain something? And if you look at your own behavior, look at people’s reaction. Once you take something that they don’t quite understand, it’s like, “Well, what is going on with this social media?” And you explain what’s going on and they go, “Oh, I get it.” That is the essence of a teacher. That’s conveying information, conveying insight.

Lee Frederiksen:
And that’s what really works in a one-on-one interaction. It’s not you talking faster and talking about all the success you had. That doesn’t build trust. But on the other hand, giving that genuine information and demonstrating it, giving a little sample. Metaphorically, I think of it as that nice retired person who used to work in supermarkets. And at the end of the aisle they pass out these little samples of things that’s similar to what you’re doing. What would it be like to work with you? Do you make this understandable or do you make me feel like an idiot for asking you the question? Do you talk down to me, or am I really learning? “Hey, I’d like to work with this person.” That’s kind of the difference. It’s sort of the when you’re just new to a relationship, you really have to lean on that part of the relationship to build up that trust because you haven’t had that history of sharing information with them over time.

Liston Witherill:
Well that’s music to my ears. Because essentially what you’re saying is your behavior during the sales process is really critical to that initial trust building. So once you do get to that conversation, totally agree with that.

Liston Witherill:
I want to go back really quickly though to your study. One thing that really stood out to me was referrals are down alongside, brand strength, trust, and loyalty. So I am curious though, some firms probably are maintaining their referrals and they probably are maintaining their brand loyalty. What’s different about those firms that aren’t seeing such a fast decline versus the rest of the group?

Lee Frederiksen:
It’s really interesting, isn’t it? When you look at those, you see relevance is up, yet loyalty is down. So how does that make any sense? And I think if you step back and you look at the big trends that are playing out, what’s happening I think is people are really focusing in on who can solve the problem that I have in front of me now. And they’re assuming if they’ve chosen you to solve that problem and you do it well, you may well have additional information, additional work that comes out of that. On the other hand, their first instinct will be who can solve the next problem I have. And one of the challenges is sometimes even if you could solve it, they might not realize you can solve it. That’s why the process of educating the client about the things that you can do to help them doesn’t end with the initial sale. Something that goes through the relationship. And those people who do it really well, who do it naturally and have done it for years. If you scratch, that’s what you’ll find. They’re understanding the client’s situation and they’re providing solutions to issues that come up in a proactive way. That’s what really deepens and develops that relationship. But if you don’t get in there in the first place to do that, you don’t have that opportunity.

Liston Witherill:
Indeed you don’t. So let’s turn from the buyers to now the sellers, the people like you and me who are running businesses. I want to ask you about lead gen. So generating leads, I know that you guys put out a lot of research, right? Which is why I know of you. I’m wondering what channels are most successful for, and you can answer this in two ways. One is for Hinge, but also for your clients. What channels are you seeing being most successful to generate new interest, new conversations?

Lee Frederiksen:
Well, I’ll start out and talk about the channels. But that’s not the only important thing. That’s only one of the important. So the channels varies a good bit depending on the market and sub market. I would say over time, what you’re seeing is a shift to the electronic. And I would think with the recent coronavirus thing, you’re going to see that jump even more to electronic communication.

Liston Witherill:
Can you give me an example of market and sub market?

Lee Frederiksen:
Okay, so a market and sub market might be all financial services. And a sub market might be private equity firms.

Liston Witherill:
Okay, great.

Lee Frederiksen:
So private equity firms for example, you might get a lot of traction off Twitter. You know how long sometimes their attention span is. But you go into the educational market, you’re probably talking Facebook. But generally the business market and you’re talking LinkedIn is sort of the primary social media tool for a lot of firms. But there are many others. So that varies a lot from industry to sub industry.

Lee Frederiksen:
But having said that, about 70% of the presale activity we found happens digitally. So what that means is your digital channels are most likely to pick up the broadest group there. So I would say probably the single best approach right now is probably webinars. I’d say podcasts are growing, but are hit by some of the lack of commuting now. A lot different. Walking downstairs is very different than driving an hour and a half on the freeway.

Liston Witherill:
Indeed, I’ve seen that on my own podcast. Yeah.

Lee Frederiksen:
Yeah, exactly. So you have those sorts of things. But interestingly, I would say one of the other best kind of techniques is what we call executive guides. Where it’s a 20 to 30 page discussion of a substantive topic area. It could be something like mergers and acquisitions. Legal implications of mergers and acquisitions. Okay. That’s a topic that’s substantive. And we find good traction with that. And between webinars and guides, you’re kind of hitting readers, and listeners, and watchers for both of those. I would say those are probably the two most promising.

Liston Witherill:
Okay. Related question. Let’s say I go to the trouble of writing an executive guide, 20 to 30 pages, right? On whatever topic. It doesn’t really matter. Is it okay to just take that and then translate that into a webinar, and just give that over and over again?

Lee Frederiksen:
Well, giving the same thing over and over again is rarely going to be okay. That’s pretty limited. Somebody’s not going to follow you if you’re saying the same thing every day. That’s just plain annoying, so that’s not going to happen.

Liston Witherill:
How dare you?

Lee Frederiksen:
Yeah. I think one of the things that we have found is not just the channel you put the content in, because it’s the more channels. It’s really the relevance of the content. It’s something that’s really relevant to their situation. And there, we have discovered something of a silver bullet.

Liston Witherill:
Oh, do tell.

Lee Frederiksen:
Yes. Do tell. And that is high quality, insightful research. Actually using research as content. We’ve found that with the fastest growing companies, that’s one of the things that they’re doing differently than the slower growing ones are. They’re much more likely to do research, and they’re much more likely to use it as content.

Lee Frederiksen:
Because research does two things. One is it gives you insight into your market. It gives yo knowledge that you couldn’t get by just informally talking to people. The other thing it does is it’s a tremendous interest to your target client audience if it’s relevant to their situation or their problem.

Lee Frederiksen:
So to give you just a small example, Hinge was doing an employer branding study. In other words, looking at your employer brand, your ability to recruit people. And with the outbreak of the COVID pandemic, we ended up putting in a couple of questions just about how firms were handling that. Tremendously relevant. And out of that we got, “Here’s some tips, here’s what the firms that are seen very positively, here’s what they’re doing differently than those that are seen as having issues with how they’re handling it.” And that kind of thing has gone through the roof in terms of downloads and interest in that, because it’s very relevant to what people are dealing with today and at this moment. And it’s not just someone’s opinion, it’s based on a piece of research. And then you provide the input from that.

Lee Frederiksen:
So I think that’s a good example of where something, if it’s really relevant to the situation people are doing or the problem they’re facing, they’re going to be interested in it. They’ll find you.

Liston Witherill:
Right. To your point, that’s been my experience too, as I put out content that’s immediately relevant to the new remote work reality and sort of how do I respond or operate in the context of coronavirus. People are very interested in that. And I think one of the drivers that I’ve seen is people feel a lot of uncertainty.

Lee Frederiksen:
That’s right.

Liston Witherill:
Probably the most that they’ve ever felt in their lives. Certainly it’s true for me. So as I not only think through some of these problems, but like you said, reach out to other people and ask, “What are you doing, what are you seeing?” And then sort of packaging that and translating it for my audience. That’s been very successful.

Liston Witherill:
I want to turn to sales for a second. So sales is often a dirty word in professional services, we can call it the s-word, right? And a lot of firms are afraid of it. And what I find interesting is in my business when I ask someone, “Do you do sales?” Sometimes they say yes. Sometimes they say no. But then when I say, “Okay, no. How do you get business?” And they’re like, “Well, I reach out directly to people and I go to networking events. And then I work on that for three years.” And I was like-

Lee Frederiksen:
AKA sales.

Liston Witherill:
So sales. Right. Tell me about the sales programs at some of your high growth firms. So we’re now turning to another study. You did a high growth firms study. And I’m curious about what does a sales program look like at a high growth firm or do they even have one?

Lee Frederiksen:
That’s a great question. There are a lot of variations we’re seeing in high growth firms depending somewhat on the industry they’re in. For example, if you’re dealing with very large complex organizations that have very long sales cycle. Think federal government, think enterprise level Fortune 50 companies. That’s very common for people to have dedicated sales professionals. Someone who’s just working on that and putting together the proposal and dealing with it. I think for many professional services firms, you have what is referred to as a seller doer model. It’s the same person who’s selling it is doing the work. And that is a complicated thing to do because obviously you get into this sine wave situation where you get real busy, so you stop doing any sales. And then you stop having business so you go back and forth, back and forth.

Lee Frederiksen:
So what we’re finding is that more organizations are trying to say, “Is there something in the middle? Because I need to have my subject matter experts involved in the sale. Otherwise there’ll be no trust and I won’t demonstrate my expertise as an organization. So I need to have them involved. But I can’t have them only doing that.” So I think there’s an emergence of these kind of hybrid roles where they sometimes call them business development people. They are inside salespeople or people who will facilitate the development of the relationship. They’ll find some opportunities, they’ll set up the appointment, they’ll make sure proposal gets out to follow up, those kinds of things. So I think if there’s any model that is sort of gaining in popularity, that’s sort of the one that I see accelerating. But again, a lot of differences depending on your specifics of your audience.

Liston Witherill:
In those companies that do have, let’s say this hybrid model, it sounds like usually there’s maybe one, two, three dedicated people who are focused on kind of a hybrid between marketing and sales. Which I guess they’re calling business development. So let’s say that’s kind of the idea. Do they have compensation structures or incentives tied directly to revenue often? Or how are they evaluated?

Lee Frederiksen:
That’s a great question that I don’t know the answer to, because we haven’t done a specific study on that. So anecdotally, what I see is yes, they tend to have some sort of incentive system that’s tied to overall performance. That’s what we do and what we think is probably right. I think one of the big challenges that doesn’t get talked a lot about, but many professional services firms have had sort of a portfolio kind of approach to business. In other words, you as an individual professional would develop your own book of business. And they were your clients. And that is one model that I would say is historically been the most prevalent model in professional services. While we see a lot of firms, particularly high growth firms switching to much more of a one-firm model. That everything that comes in it, we have a wide range of services. And they are not your clients, they are the firm’s clients. That’s not an easy transition for some people to make. And it’s much more challenging in professional services than it is in others. And that’s why I think you see this variety around business models and something of a confusion around what’s the right way to do it because I don’t think there’s any consensus yet about any one right way.

Liston Witherill:
Right. And what I’ve seen is there are ways that tend to be more successful. But for every way that you would tell someone, “Hey, this is the right way.” They could come up with an example of someone doing the opposite thing who is still successful despite maybe not doing it in a way that would statistically lead to success. That’s what I found.

Lee Frederiksen:
Well said.

Liston Witherill:
Yeah. I mean it’s a big world, right? I think that’s the bottom line. I want to go to kind of a dicey topic for some firms, which is outbound selling. So we talked about developing expertise. We talked about the fact that a lot of buyers will go out and do research. And 90% of the time, they’ll decide not to contact you, which is amazing and scary for a lot of people. Is there a role or do you see high growth firms doing any level of outbound? And I think that can come in two forms.

Liston Witherill:
One is kind of the direct traditional prospecting model where I reach out and say, “Hey, just wanted to introduce myself. We’re a firm that does this. If you’d ever like to talk about how we can help, let me know.” I think kind of the 2.0 or 3.0 depending on who you talk about or talk to version of that is to say, “We have a webinar coming up, and it’s for firms like yours. Would you like to join? I can send you the link.” Do you see anyone doing these high growth firms? Do you see them doing outbound to supplement the content and thought leadership they’re already putting out there?

Lee Frederiksen:
Short answer is yes, we do. We see a lot of them experimenting with it. And what our observation has been is that it does not universally work, but it does in some situations. And those situations tend to be where they have a service that’s widely used within the target, and you have a particular approach or an offer that is low risk. So for example, an accounting firm that specializes in state and local taxation. Especially with real property like hotels and those kinds of things that have real property in another jurisdiction. They may go online and said, “We notice that you have this kind of tax liability. We’ll review this for nothing and it won’t cost you anything. And if we can save you any money, we’ll take half of it and you take the other half.” Something like that. We’ve seen success with that where it’s a very low risk. “It’s not going to cost me anything out of pocket? I might get free money. Okay, let’s hear what you have to say.” Whereas you say, “We’re an accounting firm and we can help you with state and local taxes.” “Thank you very much.”

Lee Frederiksen:
So I think it depends a lot on that, and you really hit upon something I think that’s relevant. That’s if you don’t have trust going into it, what you need to do is give before you get. Give something before you ask for something. And that’s where giving the education, getting information, that I think is much more likely to work. And the other thing that we do see work pretty consistently is something that we label nurturing calls. That is you already have some kind of, they know who you are. But you give up, say, “Hey, well I saw this article on that and thought you might be interested or [inaudible 00:32:15]. So I’m going to be at this conference. Are you going to be attending?” Those kinds of questions that just help develop the relationship. Those seem to have much more likelihood of success.

Liston Witherill:
So when you’re talking about nurturing, it sounds like that’s one of the ways of distributing some of the content that you’re already making. Let’s put aside conferences for now. But it could be based on a piece of content that you’ve made. As you said, one of your executive guides, a webinar that may be coming up. Is that how you distribute your own content, both the push and the pull?

Lee Frederiksen:
Yes. Although we largely, we’ve been doing this for long enough. Let me back up a second. One of the things they did at Hinge that I think is probably one of the keys to our success besides saying we’re going to only offer things that our research shows are effective. That was a foundation. That forced us to do regular research and has created the platform. But the other thing we did is we said, “We’re going to do it ourselves. So we’re going to try it on ourselves first before we try it on you.” So we have tried are a lot of different approaches and evaluated a lot of different approaches. And we have found that search engine optimization is kind of the foundation upon which things sit. People find us through searching for particular topics of interest. And that is really in some ways the purest form of you have an issue, you have a challenge, let me figure something out. Here’s an article about solving that challenge. And that’s how most of our relationships begin.

Lee Frederiksen:
Also, we have experimented with other kinds of things. And we do offer content on a regular basis to people who we already have a relationship with. So that’s very active, “Outbound, here’s a new research study, here’s a new guide, we just updated this. Thought you might like this blog post.” Those are active. But in terms of just cold calling a list, that has not proven to have the same kind of success we do with the inbound and the outbound education.

Liston Witherill:
Interesting. Okay. Final question related to that. Do you do anything other than just traditional SEO, so sort of the on-page technical keyword driven stuff? Do you do anything else in order to accelerate the amount of inbound that you get so you have some control or more control over volume?

Lee Frederiksen:
Sure, we do the social media promotion of it for example. And we do regular webinars, those kinds of things. But I think most of those kind of fall in kind of the nurturing. I would say the other thing we don’t do that we considered our integral part of SEO, but some might not. And that is we do guest publications. We will also, in addition to writing in our own blog posts and our own publications, we’ll publish articles in other publications or appear in webinars or podcasts, or those kinds of things to increase the visibility of the expertise. But it’s all really built around this notion of increasing the visibility of your expertise as the core.

Liston Witherill:
Excellent. Well you been very open about your business, about your research, about your clients. I really appreciate it. It’s been a thrill to have you on here honestly, because I have been following you for so long. If people want to get in touch with you or learn more about Hinge Marketing, what should they do?

Lee Frederiksen:
Hingemarketing.com, that’s the best single way to do it. And as everyone does, you will judge us by our website and the content we have on it.

Liston Witherill:
Excellent. Thank you for being here, Lee.

Lee Frederiksen:
Thank you. It’s been a pleasure.

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