Modern Sales Podcast

Virtual Selling Research with Dave Shaby of RAIN Group

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How different is virtual selling versus in-person selling? Find out what the research says, with Dave Shaby of RAIN Group.

The global pandemic has accelerated the change from selling in-person to remote selling. But it’s nothing new. “Inside selling” means selling remotely, from a home or office, and has been around for decades. 

Yet a lot of us are struggling to adapt to the new reality of selling remotely because it feels so different. But is it? 

Dave Shaby, COO at RAIN Group, shares his recent research on the question of how both buyers and sellers are adapting to the new remote selling reality. Here are some links mentioned in the show:

RAIN Group’s Virtual Selling Study
Dave Shaby on LinkedIn
Remote Selling article by Liston
Virtual Selling: How to Build Relationships, Differentiate, and Win Sales Remotely

Podcast Episodes:

Remote Selling: An Overview
Remote Selling: Video Selling
Remote Selling: The Sales Process to Use


Virtual Selling Research with Dave Shaby of RAIN Group:

Full Transcript

Dave Shaby
The best interactions are when you co create something with your buyer, right. And that happened at different phases throughout the sales cycle, even early on when you’re when you’re just sort of establishing what the needs might be and what some of the pain points might be, and what some of the aspirations might be co creating that and creating a visual version of it where you are whiteboarding it or you’re annotating things, and you’re taking notes. And those themselves can be interesting, you can be interesting, in the way that you show notation, you can have the buyer participate in that. And so you know, imagine a meeting where even if it’s two or three people, not just one on one where, you know, you’re you’re you’re creating atmosphere of interest around the way that you’re using the tech to do simple needs discovery, which would have been, you know, a bit of a throwaway in the past where you’re just doing QA.

Liston Witherill
That’s Dave Shaby, Chief Operating Officer rain Group, a sales training company, his team reached out to me to discuss their recent research on virtual selling, and that caught my attention immediately. As you know, I’ve covered this topic extensively. If you’d like to read my article, or hear my podcasts on the topic, there are links in the show notes. Go check those out for some further listening after you’re finished with this episode. I’ve also linked to the research by ring group in the show notes. But here’s the main thing that I wanted to know. So many people have asked me for help to transition to inside selling or remote selling. But how different is it really, from the perspective of the buyer and from the perspective of the seller? Sure, you can say that in person selling is different. I’m using air quotes there. But how? Just making that claim is not an argument. It’s a completely unsupported belief, even if it feels true. So I brought Dave Shea beyond to talk about the differences between the two, and how you can adapt to an all remote working style. And my biggest question, is virtual selling really that different? or do some of us just use it as an excuse for poor results? Let’s find out today on modern sales. Welcome to modern sales, a podcast to help agency owners and independent consultants win better clients by understanding how people buy. I’m your host, Liston. Witherill, founder of serve, don’t sell and I dig through academic research, interview people inside and outside of sales to nerd out on the psychology, economics and neuroscience to figure out how people make decisions. And I am on a mission to make 100 million people ethical world class communicators so that buying b2b services can feel just as good as a break in the rain in the middle of January. If you live in the desert, you have no idea what the heck I’m talking about. But trust me, it is a welcome change. If you’re listening on Spotify, hit that follow button so you don’t miss an episode. And if you’re listening on iTunes or Apple podcasts, please subscribe and leave an honest review. It helps me get the word out for the show so that we can together flip selling on its head and make 100 million people’s world class ethical communicators. Thank you in advance for your help. Now to the show. How different is in person selling from virtual selling? Better yet? What do real life buyers and sellers say? And how are their opinions different? Find out in my conversation with Dave Shelby right after the short break. Welcome back to modern sales. I’m Liston Witherill. And today I am here with Dave Shea of the rain group. Dave, welcome to modern sales.

Dave Shaby
Great, thank you appreciate being here.

Liston Witherill
Absolutely. I’m glad to have you here. And the reason you reached out kind of the impetus for this conversation was to talk about virtual selling, which I’ve thought a lot about I’ve written a lot about. I’ve had Jeb blunt on the podcast as well. So a lot of people talking about virtual selling. But one thing that I saw that you did, and this is why I agreed to have you on was the ring group produced some research about virtual selling and kind of the impact both on sellers and buyers. So just by way of introduction might be a great way just to open up the conversation here. What did you find in your research?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, thanks for asking. So back in February, March, when things started changing quite a bit, as everyone knows, rain group decided to learn a little bit more about what was impacting folks and how we could be helpful. So we conducted a study, we talked to a combination of 528 buyers and sellers. And we asked them questions from the buyers perspective. What are some of the things that you think sellers are good at and what are the things that you value when you’re purchasing? And for sellers, what are challenges that you’re facing right now, and for sellers and buyers? So if you look at both equations, the one thing that they both have in common was that engagement, the ability to build relationships and to feel connected Virtually, which is not a big surprise is one of the things that we found. What was surprising was that for buyers, they were really struggling with the way that sellers have come across. So that that includes technology failures. It includes rapport building and relationship. Building, edit includes really important things like ROI case making, collaboration, and coming up with a compelling solution and being able to articulate that. So from a buyer’s perspective, those were some really big gaps. In fact, the number one gap was around an ROI, solution 16%, according to buyers of sellers, we’re good at that. And it is one of the number one drivers of buyer interest to see that ROI impact. So, you know, we felt like the research was pretty clear in terms of needing to intervene and doing something about it. So consequently, we’ve written a book, and we’re helping companies right now through our training programs, as well.

Liston Witherill
So I have some targeted questions about some of the specific things you found, because I think they’re worth discussing. But I guess my overall take on the research, and I went through the whole report, which, by the way, dear listener, if you want to look at the report, it is linked here, you just have to put in your information, and you can access it too. But one of the things that really jumped out at me is a lot of the things that sellers are failing at, according to your report, and according to the buyers that you asked, are just good sales techniques, they really have nothing to do with being virtual or in person. And so I was wondering your take on that, because it seems to me that, you know, maybe one of the the key messages here is, sellers were already bad at a lot of these things, or at least lacking in a lot of these areas. And now they have an easy scapegoat, which is I can no longer go in person. And so I’m pointing out virtual selling as the problem.

Dave Shaby
I think there’s something to that for sure. So I don’t have the Compare and contrast numbers that say, okay, rapport building is a problem, whether you’re in person or you’re virtual, and buyers need more, it’s fair to say that buyers from an ROI case making standpoint, solution crafting standpoint, those are universal issues, those are not virtual selling issues. I think what’s missing, and the gap that gets filled in live settings is that sellers can react really well to what’s not working in a live environment, you have the the ability to read the room a bit better. And you also have your charisma and your relationship building. Most sellers are charismatic, or at least personable. And so the energy in the room can to some degree make up for some of the shortfalls that happen on on these calls. But I would agree with your statement that it can be a scapegoat. And that regardless of whether it’s virtual or not, those skills are naturally bound by good selling, right that that is what we need to do. We need to be able to do really good solution crafting, we need to be able to ask good questions, we need to be able to uncover needs all of that.

Liston Witherill
What was the biggest surprise you found? In your research? What jumped out at you and your team as Gosh, we just didn’t expect to see that?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, it’s a good question. I think the gaps are probably the biggest surprise, the difference between what sellers showed up with skills and what buyers need, right. So 16% of ROI are good at 64% that it was a manger said of buyer said it was a main driver. So there are huge gaps. So that was surprised. Number one. And then secondly, almost universally, technology failure was was really at the top of lists for buyers. It’s sort of like, you know, I want you to do all these things. But I can’t I can’t get over the fact that you have poor lighting, I can’t hear you. We have all sorts of issues going on. And you know, I’m just distracted by that. So I wouldn’t say it’s surprising, but the magnitude of it was a bit surprising, because it seemed almost universal.

Liston Witherill
Yeah. It’s funny, because in the pre interview, you know, you mentioned to me, you don’t want to just be like the guy going around talking about how important zoom is and how to make better use of zoom. Sure, but it is funny. I mean, you know, I did a webinar about sort of the transition, making the fast transition from in person to remote. Back in April, I wrote an article about it. And overwhelmingly, the questions really were about the tech, right, how do I make all of this work effectively. And one of the things that I find is, as you mentioned, traditionally the archetype of the seller, whether it’s a business owner or dedicated salesperson or sort of account manager who also does some selling, they tend to be really good with people, and they tend to cover up maybe some shortcomings in planning, with the ability to react in real time. And what I find with virtual selling is, or the digital environment in general, is it has to be much more structured and planned out. And that can be really challenging to the traditional person in these roles.

Dave Shaby
Yeah, 100% agree. It’s one of the areas of the book that we talk about a lot, which is, you know, that that playfulness and managing yourself, right. So to the extent that you think about rapport, let’s just take rapport, which can happen really organically in a live setting, you know, you’re going to go to a meeting in a building with a, with a client, you’re going to have a coffee, you’re going to have a moment where you’re walking into the room, you’re going to have breaks, you don’t have that in in virtual settings. And so you have to think, as the seller about ways to create space, and what questions you’re going to fill that space with, that are going to be beyond the natural sort of introductions, and how do you do use, it’s really to get to know your buyer and what, you know, what, what makes them tick, not easy. And, and so that’s an area of opportunity. But I do think, you know, sort of going back to the tech thing. And I think this curve has changed a little bit, that initial discomfort with the technology itself, like if you think about what the buyer was focused on, you know, wanting to have a good meeting that’s valuable, and what the seller is focused on, like, my gosh, I hope my camera works, right, there’s just a disconnect in terms of where the, where the focus is. And then when something doesn’t go right, it just throws the seller off their game. So that plan fullness, thinking about your staging your setup, just to make sure tech works. So you can serve the buyer really well.

Liston Witherill
So one of the top sales challenges that salespeople reported in your report, or at least the people who self categorized as being in sales. They one of the core challenges is gaining and keeping a buyer fully engaged in a virtual setting. Yeah, what is what does that mean? And I guess in particular, I’m curious, how would you contrast? What’s different about doing that virtually versus in person in the same room?

Dave Shaby
Sure. So engagement to us. And I can give you a bit of a definition around a term that we’ve coined for the book is, it’s called engagement threshold. So there’s a certain point in which somebody loses attention. And they might start multi multitasking, just getting fatigued or losing their focus. In a live setting, it’s, you know, x times easier to maintain the focus of everybody in the room. Yeah. And in a virtual setting, because there is compulsive multitasking, you know, think about it, if you went into a live meeting, and everybody started checking their phones, it would just be unnatural,

Liston Witherill
but it happens.

Dave Shaby
I’ve been that, you know, I’ve been the both the doer and the receiver that right? in virtual settings, it’s almost always going to happen, right? multitasking, the natural consequence of a virtual setting. There’s that there’s, there’s just the fatigue that sets in when you have your gaze set on a person or a camera. And then there’s the dynamics of meetings that have multiple people in them, which creates an effect of, you know, essentially, a person can hide in a virtual meeting, it’s a bit easier to hide and detach when you have 567 10 people in a meeting. And so when you add all of those factors together, from a seller’s point of view, one of the main things they really need to do is think about shorter bursts, and ways to grab and regrab attention and engagement. So essentially, a rule of thumb is you have about 30 seconds to grab attention in about three minutes to keep it before you need to change things up and create a new dynamic, such as checking the room, using people’s names, changing the graphic, changing the slide, adding animation, doing a poll using a whiteboard, right, we can make a list of things that you could do. But you have to plan that right, you have to almost create a bit of a run sheet, either actually, or at least mentally around how you’re going to change things up every three minutes to reengage, or else you’re going to start getting those phone checkers and all of the people who are fading. So that’s what we talked about with engagement. And it happens, right? So we’ve all been on those zoom meetings, it’s your 10th zoom meeting of the day, and you’re sort of losing focus. And that’s what’s happening.

Liston Witherill
So it sounds like the answer is mix it up more, use more multimedia be a little bit more dynamic, maybe than you’re used to where you can’t just rely on the force of your personality or like, for me, I’m physically huge. And I know that holds people’s attention to if I’m in person, but we’re all the same size on the zoom window. So like That’s right. And you don’t have that right. No, I know that’s been taken away from our no longer and advantage. You know, no hard feelings, of course. But in terms of keeping people engaged, what are some signs that someone may not be as engaged or I’m losing them at a certain point

Dave Shaby
Yeah, I mean, I think some of the signs are, you know, physically you can see that there. Well, first of all, people turn off video, right. So if you’re in a meeting with three, four or five people, inevitably one person is going to flick the video on and off. Right? So expectation that you’re going to be using video in the invite, right? This is a video meeting, I’ll be on video without being rude. But then you start seeing people Flip Video. And so that means they’re doing something else perhaps. So you’ve got that, which is a pretty obvious sign. You also want to not let it get to the point where you have to look for visual cues, because then you’re multitasking now you’re trying to manage a room full of, you know, tiled people on video. So to the extent that you have some technique, like using people’s name, or giving the anticipation of an answer coming back to, for example, if I said, you know, john, I’m going to I’m going to make this point now for a couple of minutes. And it would be great to hear your comments back. Now I’ve got john for two minutes, because he knows he needs to speak in two minutes about something that I’m about to say. So using that, that baton passing technique and creating anticipation for people in the meeting that they’re going to be speaking is one way to avoid that. So I’m not really answering your question directly. I’m talking about avoidance. Because there’s all sorts of ways you think about that.

Liston Witherill
So you know, what’s what’s been interesting about this whole thing to me is I’ve been intentionally building my business 100% remotely since 2014. And so all of my selling has been remote and online before that I did in person selling. And that was like a big part, including sales management. And that was a big part of my career. But I moved remote. And I think maybe I’ve lost some of the contrast of what it was like before and what it’s like now, and one of the things I found is, it’s interesting, you say don’t pay attention or or it’s can be distracting. to characterize it correctly, it can be distracting to be paying really close attention to everybody’s body language. But for me, one of the important things has been, because I’m remote, the signals are less about whether someone’s engaged with me. And if I’m focused on their body language, a slight head movement, a change in how open their eyes are looking away from the camera, or diverting their attention somewhere else in the room. All of those things are sort of little micro actions that happen subconsciously, but tell me, I might be losing the person. And so I actually recommend paying attention to body language. And as you said, I think it’s really, really critical to tell everybody and set the expectation before and during the meeting, you have to be on video. Otherwise, I know this meetings not really going to be worth anyone’s time. So Sure. On that note, I’m curious, if you get pushback from someone that they don’t want to be on video, what do you do,

Dave Shaby
I stay on video, I set the expectation. So I’m going to assume that there’s a reason, right. And so the reason could be as simple as they’re not prepared, they have a giant garbage pile behind them. And it’s just going to be embarrassing. So there, there’s probably a, you know, I’m going to I’m going to let it slide this time moment, but I’m going to keep my video on and usually social pressure can work in your favor. And so I think what you said is a good is a good comment, which is it’s going to be a better meeting for everybody. If we can really connect through video, you know, and I’d be pretty direct about it. Because I believe that. And so, you know, you’re gonna have meetings where you have 11 people in the meeting and just can’t help it and two of those folks will never check in. That’s understandable. And again, the solution is don’t have 11 people in the meeting, if you can help it.

Liston Witherill
Say, yeah, how can we narrow down to one decision maker, that would be obviously the optimum, right,

Dave Shaby
right. But if you do a demo, sometimes you get that crowd, you know, if you’re doing a demo tends to dry and sort of people from the periphery and they come and they just sort of passively watching if they’re not decision makers, and that’s fine. But you don’t want to have the tone of the meeting be sort of half on half off. disengagement is okay, because people sort of follow that. And it starts to turn into a bit of a dogfight for you to just get people to show up, right.

Liston Witherill
Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I find frustrating about that is if we show up at the same time, right, what is the purpose of a meeting? This is kind of a question that I’ve revisited since all of this has happened. The purpose of the meaning is to be able to have an interaction with someone. So if they’re just going to sit there and watch a screen, I can just as easily send them a video, like there’s no real purpose to be in the same place at the same time, and certainly no purpose for me to give the same talk over and over and over again, if someone’s just going to be watching as if it’s a pre recorded video.

Dave Shaby
Yeah, I think great point. And so that whole question exercise where, you know, the best interactions are when you co create something with your buyer, right. And that happened at different phases throughout the sales cycle, even early on when you’re when you’re just sort of establishing what are the needs might be and what some of the pain points might be and what some of the aspirations might be co creating that and creating a visual version of it where you are whiteboarding it, or you’re annotating things, and you’re taking notes. And those themselves can be interesting, you can be interesting, in the way that you show notation, you can have the buyer participate in that. And so you know, imagine a meeting where even if it’s two or three people, not just one on one where, you know, you’re you’re you’re creating atmospheric interest around the way that you’re using the tech to do simple needs discovery, which would have been, you know, a bit of a throwaway in the past, where you’re just doing QA and interest level getting people to lean in, wow, that’s no different. I haven’t seen that before. Or, my gosh, they did research before they showed up. They created three panels, and they put categories on those panels. And now it’s sitting in front of me. And yeah, that makes sense. But he actually asked me if I got it right, right. So for example, if I’m the seller, and I want to do a little bit of needs discovery, if I put a whiteboard up that’s got some categories of research that I’ve done, I can certainly start the meeting by saying, How do I do, right? And all of a sudden, you You’re, you’re interacting in a way that’s three or four dimensions differently than it would have been otherwise?

Liston Witherill
Yeah, and just kind of a pro tip for anybody interested in the tech side of this. I love this tool. This is unpaid. They’re not a sponsor, but they could be Miro MRO is a fantastic tool for virtual whiteboarding, and has mind mapping. You can do Khan bond lanes have stickies. It’s just like a whiteboard experience. And I’ve used that in my training. But I’ve also used it in the sales process. And it has this real kind of wow factor for people where as you said, without having that we’re just having a normal discussion. with it. It feels like we’re making something really cool and really useful, that can be reused, even if they don’t end up buying from me.

Dave Shaby
Yeah, we’re fans of Miro as well. We we do stress that if you are tech phobic. First of all, these are not hard tools to learn and use. Literally, literally putting up a Word document is okay, right, just just just do something don’t leave that to chance. So yeah, using the better tools and Miro certainly in that category. But you know, I would want those who are new to this, to say, you know, I will be daring and start with a Word doc and just do a screen share and just write I mean, fine, just type on it. If you don’t want to use any stenography tools, or anything with a pen or annotation pens or anything like that, just type type right into zoom, go to the annotation screen and just type it’s fine. So those are some some things we’ve heard is that it’s just good to get started.

Liston Witherill
So I noticed one of the stats that’s comparing, and you brought this up already. Buyers expectations are kind of what’s important to a buyer that would drive a purchasing decision, versus what do sellers actually excel at, which is what you called seller effectiveness. So the percentage of buyers who say, yeah, sellers do this well or not? The only thing that sellers did better than buyers really valued was they exceeded their expectations and bugging people for meetings, right? Set phone calls, you know, emails, LinkedIn messages, whatever it is. Why do you think that sellers are overly focused on this thing that doesn’t matter nearly as much to buyers?

Dave Shaby
It’s hard to say why that is. I mean, I think sellers want to be able to get more meetings. And so they think that by pouring rain on people, they’re going to get wetter, right? So to the extent that it’s a natural way to fill time, right, just Bombs away with email and LinkedIn requests. And just we know that everybody can fall victim to that. Well, we talked about with outreach is that it’s got to be targeted, and it’s got to have value for the buyer. Right. So what value can I provide? Why should you spend 15 minutes with me? Have I done any research? Is this note that I’m sending you about you? Or is it about me? And so no wonder sellers are overwhelming in that one category. There’s a volume play, whereas buyers want to precision play. They want to know how you specifically can help me specifically in what it is that you know about me already so that there’s the disconnect. In all other areas. It’s underwhelming right in terms of underperforming versus overindulging

Liston Witherill
totally and as I mentioned earlier, looking at all of the things that buyers value and that sellers fall short at, a lot of these are just core sales skills, right? So you’re listening to someone’s needs, and not just hearing them but actually internalize What is it? They’re telling me? How do I action this information? How do I adapt my pitch to what’s going to be relevant to them? If you’re in a highly consultative sale, those kinds of skills just seem like lacking. So stop putting that off. Okay. So I see that there are several gaps in what buyers value, as I mentioned, right things like leading a good discovery, showing the buyer what’s possible, I think you refer to this as the ROI discussion earlier, and even good listening skills, what virtual challenges are blocking sellers from doing this stuff? And what do you recommend people who engage with rain group, what do you recommend to them?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, so I think, you know, to your point that you’ve been continuing to make this is not just a virtual issue, right? This is just pure sales issue in terms of let’s take case making as a as a substantive part of sales skills. And so case, making, to some degree, very simply put, is about creating a reason why a buyer should change, right, becoming a change agent and thinking about what impact that change would have on the organization. And so the ability to present a very logical, coherent set of cases that come partially from learning more about the organization from suggesting that certain things might have high impact, right ROI cases, thinking about, where’s your company focused? Are you doing this or that? Why? Right, so to the extent that in a virtual setting, there’s some advantages and case making, in that you can co create that with your buyer, and establish what are those facts that belong in the case that leads to change, and present that back in the form of, let’s say, slides, for example, to be very simple, you can create a slide sequence that essentially tells the story of why a buyer should make a change. And so that blueprinting exercise, again, virtually it’s hard to do, if you’re just sort of winging it, you’re having conversations, you want people to come to conclusions. If you do it together, you do it visually. And you do it systematically, you think about the facts that lead to the change, that’s that you’re trying to instigate, it can really hang together well, virtually, there’s also a secondary benefit, which is you create an asset, where you work with your buyer, to have something tangible that that makes the case that then can travel, right, because part of the issue with virtual selling is, where’s this information going? It’s always a challenge, right? But is there a Is there a buyer who may not know is there a buying group that I may not have a chance to spend much time with? What are they going to consume? How are they going to learn about opportunity? And so being able to make a case on slides together and blueprint that, to some degree enable that to travel? Well, because it’s very tight, and it’s co created? And and so I would consider it to be an advantage of virtual selling and that you have some implied permission to co create slides together. It’s not something you’d probably do in a conference room.

Liston Witherill
Yeah. So let’s talk about this idea of ROI. Because I’ve been, you’ve mentioned it a couple times. And I have some real reservations, of focusing on ROI as a sales tool for a variety of reasons. So like one, it’s going to be chock full of assumptions, right, which may or may not apply. And I think it also depends on the situation. So for instance, rain group has x number of years of history, I’m guessing decades now. I don’t know how long you guys have been in business?

Dave Shaby
Nearly 20.

Liston Witherill
Right. So nearly 20, right. So the data set that you can draw from to create these assumptions is very, it’s great, right? But a lot of companies don’t have that. And also, it may or may not apply to an individual client. So I’m curious, since you brought it up a couple times, what is your approach to this ROI calculation? Like what components do we need in order to do it effectively and convincingly?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, I think so. It’s a great question. And in fact, what we found, what research shows is that ROI, if done poorly, actually works against you lower close rates with poor ROI presentation. And so we don’t like the idea that you’d walk in with a canned number to say, you know, on average, our clients increase their clothes, if your brain grew up, you wouldn’t say on average, our clients increase their close rates by 10%. And if we apply that to all of your sellers, you know, that’s $500 million in sales Sign up now. Right. So the idea that you have a canned ROI, preconceived notion of what’s possible for any given client is is Mistake number one. So our advice is, this is a co creation exercise, and you have to be really conservative. And this isn’t just about the calculation. This is about the fields. Have participation for your client to lean into the two or three things that are most important. So when you start doing your discovery work, and you start asking questions about what really, you know, if this changed, would this be meaningful? And how much do you think we can change it working together, just, you know, get your client to articulate and do it together. And if you walk in the room with numbers, it’s bound to fail. So I think that’s sort of the first part is changing the perspective of how it’s done. And then secondly, aim low, right? Because if you have two or three levers that you can pull, inevitably there’s going to be good ROI. Sorry, that’s our experience, instead of coming up with numbers that just, you know, when when a CFO sees that they just sniff Bs, and they say, okay, right. This is not good. This is not gonna pass muster. Well, I

Liston Witherill
love so it’s, it’s funny this. So this is exactly the advice I give is let your clients come up with a numbers of what they think is realistic, and then pick the low one so that you can be conservative. And of course, it always helps to have clients who have scale because all the numbers look bigger, it’s easier to get a bigger ROI that comes out of that obvious follow up question is if a client has like this really optimistic, in our experience, right, it would be optimistic kind of hope, for the engagement. How do I modulate that to kind of bring us back down to earth? Something that would still have a return, but would be more realistic?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, I think you can. So if you said something, something like what do you think we can do in terms of growing the average size of sale? Again, we’re in sales training, so And they said, Well, we can double the size of the sale, I’ve always thought that you congratulate the person to some degree, you know, I really applaud that optimism. I hope to get there. Why don’t we just say conservatively, like the language that I would pitch back to them is, why don’t we just say conservatively, 15 20% just so we’re not not making any mistakes here, and that we can show that the case works under any circumstance, you know, just again, I don’t want to I don’t want to, in any way, take the energy out of what the client’s optimism is. But I also make sure that if I don’t trust the number that I’m not, I’m not presenting it.

Liston Witherill
Right. All right, sir. Well, I think we’ve covered a lot in this conversation. I know you have a book on virtual selling, so for anybody listening who wants to learn more about you, or rain group or the book, what should they do?

Dave Shaby
Yeah, they can go to Amazon and look up virtual selling by rain group. And they can go to our website and learn more about the company and the book is featured there as well. They can also link in with me, Dave shabby, sh JPY rhymes with baby. And they can find us one of those three ways and then, you know, easy to find the book.

Liston Witherill
Fantastic. And all of that is linked in the show notes right here so you can take a look and click directly through to any of those places Dave mentioned. Dave, thank you for being here.

Dave Shaby
Thanks. Appreciate the time. It’s been fun.

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Check out the four sales fundamentals every top performer masters, how to use value-based selling to increase your leverage, and how to improve your remote selling skills as the world becomes more virtual.

And check out the SDS method if you want to improve your sales process.

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